A bit of background. Several residents of the Keepmoat Horizon development in Darnall, Sheffield have felt the need to complain about the management of the site. Eventually Sheffield Counselor Clive Bett got involved with the ongoing issues and he contacted Blue Property Management Company (appointed by Keepmoat to take over the maintenance of the site from themselves). In his letter to BPM he mentioned the thread on Sheffield Forum outlining the issues/complaints the residents were having.
The thread was deleted after Blue Property Management received a letter from Clive Betts – was it a concidence? Or did Blue Property Management or Keepmoat Homes have something to do with it?
Below is copy of the text from Google’s cache of a thread now deleted from Sheffield Forum.
This is Google’s cache of http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1359025. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on 26 Feb 2015 00:15:37 GMT. The current page could have changed in the meantime.
UPDATE: Since I started making this page the other thread on the forum that involves Horizon has also been deleted. See link.
Horizon (Darnall No2) Residents Committee
Dear Horizon Residents,
As former residents of your estate, who sadly moved from our residence a few months ago to take a once in a lifetime job opportunity abroad, we remain very fond of the diverse community where we made many new friends and later raised our children.
During our time there we never experienced trouble of any kind, and were very sad to say goodbye to the estate, however we were not sorry to say goodbye to Blue Property Management UK Limited, the site maintenance company who were a nightmare to deal with from the moment they took over, with the exception only of the maintenance guy who was always pleasant and seemed to do the best he could with the time he had.
We are currently in back in Sheffield at the moment visiting family and friends, so whilst I had access to the documentation we received/acquired in relation to the site maintenance fees, I wanted to take the opportunity to share this information with current residents of the estate in order to help them with any future issues that may arise, as we accumulated quite a number of documents and/or information from Keepmoat Homes, Edmund Winder Watts Limited, Blue Property Management UK Limited, Sheffield City Council, Residents/Neighbours and Sheffield Forum over the years, from which we have extracted various pieces of information/explanations that we hope will be of use to others in the future, as the documents themselves will be going onto the burning pile or through the shredded in the not too distant future.
Horizon, Darnall, Sheffield. Site Maintenance: The History Of
Total number of properties on the estate 177
Total number of those properties that pay for the site maintenance 135
The reason for the difference in totals is because the remaining properties were bought before a site maintenance company was employed and are therefore legally exempt from the site maintenance fees.
The reason a site maintenance company was appointed was because during the early construction states of the site, Sheffield City Council notified Keepmoat Homes that they would not be able to cover the costs of maintaining the new communal areas etcetera due to budget cuts, and that they would need to appoint an independent site maintenance company to provide that service to residents.
Edmund Winder Watts Limited were originally ‘appointed’ as the site maintenance company for Horizon, however due to Keepmoat Homes changing the site plans at various stages throughout the development of the site, resulting in only one block of flats been built instead of six, and that the remaining block of flats was to be sold and managed privately, Edmund Winder Watts Limited decided that maintaining the external areas alone was not a contract that they would undertake, as the original budget, and descriptions submitted by them was based on actual quotes from a number of subcontract companies to undertake specific external maintenance duties, inclusive of the communal areas and Acoustic Garden Bund (Horizon No2), whilst their team would concentrate on the maintenance of the six blocks of flats (Horizon No1).
This meant that Edmund Winder Watts Limited were never actually appointed nor did they undertake any site maintenance, this was still been done undertaken, or not, by Keepmoat Homes.
Therefore, the only involvement that Edmund Winder Watts Ltd had was to take part payments from each property in order to create a start-up fund for the site, from which they deducted administration & banking costs, and handed the remaining monies onto Blue Property Management UK Limited, who took over maintenance duties in May 2013, and who subsequently charged each property again to the sum of £7.31 to replace the funds deducted by Edmund Winder Watts Ltd.
A Breakdown Of The Figures To Date
Edmund Winder Watts Limited original budget was £7992.00, which worked out at £54.00 per property.
Of the £54.00 each property should have made a payment for £27.00 towards the ‘start up funds’ as instructed by Edmund Winder Watts Limited.
Blue Property Management UK limited took over site maintenance in May 2013, and on the 30th October 2013 they sent out a letter indicating an increase in the 2013/2014 budget to £8890.00, which was divided by the incorrect figure of 105 properties.
£8890.00 divided by 105 properties equals £84.67 per 12 months
The number of properties was later amended to 135 & the 12 month budget was amended as below
£8890.00 (Original budget)
Minus £2800.00 (Old Management Fee of £26.66 per property)
Plus £3915.00 (New Management Fee of £29 per property)
= £10005.00 New Budget Total
A 135th share of the £10005.00 budget equals £74.11.
On 22nd May 2014 the budget for 1st April 2014 to 31st March 2015 budget increased from £10005.00 to £11890.00.
A 135th share of the £11890.00 budget equals £88.07.
Tree Maintenance £500.00
Gardening Bund & Other Areas £3,675.00
Liability Insurance £400.00
General Repairs/eventualities £500.00
Directors & Officers Insurance £300.00
Management Fee £2,800.00
Accountancy Fee £395.00
Bank Charges/Interest £80.00
Risk Assessment £240.00
Tree Maintenance £500.00
Gardening Bund & Other Areas £5,760.00
Liability Insurance £500.00
General Repairs/eventualities £500.00
Directors & Officers Insurance N/A
Management Fee £3,915.00
Accountancy Fee £395.00
Bank Charges/Interest £80.00
Risk Assessment £240.00
EWW Limited, Original Budget
Tree Maintenance £900.00
Gardening Bund & Other Areas £2000.00
Liability Insurance £572.00
General Repairs/eventualities £500.00
Directors & Officers Insurance £300.00
Management Fee £2800.00
Accountancy Fee £400.00
Bank Charges/Interest £20.00
Risk Assessment N/A
Fencing Maintenance £500.00
Tree Maintenance £400 Decrease, No Documentation or Explanation Given
Gardening Bund & Other Areas £3760 Increase, No Documentation or Explanation Given
Liability Insurance £72 Decrease, No Documentation or Explanation Given
General Repairs/eventualities No Change
Directors & Officers Insurance £300 Decrease, No Documentation or Explanation Given
Management Fee £1115.00 Increase, Explained Above
Accountancy Fee £5 Decrease, No Documentation or Explanation Given
Bank Charges/Interest £60 Increase, No Documentation or Explanation Given
Risk Assessment £240 Increase, No Documentation or Explanation Given
Fencing Maintenance £500 Decrease, No Documentation or Explanation Given
Total £3898.00 Increase, Explanations/Documentation Outstanding
The trees at the top of the estate on the corner of Clement Street and Allende Way were blown off their vertical positions in November of 2013 due to the fact that they were incorrectly planted and supported by Keepmoat Homes. After numerous requests from resident to rectify the problem, the trees were blown completely over in December of 2013 due to Blue Property Management UK Limited failing to act sooner.
I can only speculate on the following however I was lead to believe that the trees were subsequently re-planted and supported correctly by a “two men with sledge hammers” who were thought to be residents on the estate at the time.
Unfortunately those efforts were ultimately in vain as the trees were later vandalised in May of 2014 by a group of youths late one evening. However the trees are covered under the budget, and were to be replaced once the insurance claim had been approved.
In addition to this, Keepmoat Homes agreed to stand to the cost of replacing the plants in the communal areas that did not survive the original planting stage. The work is to be undertaken by Blue Property Management UK Limited and billed directly to Keepmoat Homes, not passed onto the residents of Horizon. A list of the required plants was put together by Blue Property Management UK Limited in September 2014 who then submitted it to Keepmoat Homes for final approval.
Regarding repairs to fencing on the site, there were two outstanding repairs that I was aware of which were as follows;
– A ‘fence slat’ was missing in the acoustic bund fence, somewhere between Rustic Court & Old Brick Place.
– There were several fence posts that required re-concreting on Quarryfield Road.
With regards to the fence posts on Quarryfield Road, it is believed that these were either to be re-concreted or reconfigured into a removable ‘gate style system’ to allow for the site maintenance companies sit on lawnmower to gain access when required.
Acoustic Bund (The built-up noise cancelling banking & fencing that runs the length of Allende Way)
The whole site, Acoustic Bund included was originally the responsibility of Keepmoat Homes and then became the responsibility of Blue Property Management UK Limited once they took over the site.
Unfortunately neither Keepmoat Homes nor Blue Property Management UK Limited ever maintained either side of the Acoustic Bund from the day it was built up until June 2014.
I am aware that Blue Property Management UK Limited claim they were told not to maintain the Acoustic Bund and that it took numerous complaints from residents, and an alleged site meeting between Tamara Gifford (Blue Property Management UK Limited’s Area Manager) and Horizon residents, for Blue Property Management UK Limited to clear the housing side of the Acoustic Bund of weeds, leaving on the plants and trees to be maintained, and the top and bottom of the road side of the bund up to the treeline and in from the edge of the path.
After the housing side of the Acoustic Bund was cleared the ‘Weed Growth’ was minimal over a period of months, which going forward should mean that it is easily maintainable with occasional spraying of weed killer on the housing side, and the occasional strimming on the road side.
There was talk at one stage of the next Budget increasing to include the clearance and maintenance of the Acoustic Bund, but I was never able to confirm this, so hopefully that will not be the case.
If it were to happen it would surly fall on Keepmoat Homes to stand to the costs of clearing the mess they left behind when they handed over the site, and the any future maintenance should be covered in the £3760 budget increase for the ‘Gardening Bund & Other Areas’ since Blue Property Management UK Limited took over the site, so I would be surprised if they tried to pass those costs onto the residents.
One of the original letters from Blue Property Management UK Limited included a ‘Standing Order Bank Mandate’ form to allow you to pay your maintenance fees monthly, but this was never mentioned again and many residents think that this is no longer an option, however that is not the case, Blue Property Management UK Limited simply don’t like you to pay monthly because if everyone was to withhold payment it would give residents control of maintenance issues on the estate rather than Blue Property Management UK Limited receiving all payments upfront and been able to do what they like, when they like, without them been out of pocket a single penny.
It will cost you a little bit more if you choose to pay monthly, but I highly recommend paying via this method as it gives you the option to withhold further payments until outstanding maintenance work has been completed and/or if you are not happy with the standard of maintenance that is been done on the estate.
Hopefully you’ll never need any of this information, but if you do we hope it helps!
Hi We moved into rustic court 2 years ago and when we bought the house we were promised that the embankment at the end of the cul-de-sac would be cleared and planted wit trees and plants. To date this has not been carried out and instead we have been left with an ugly, over grown weed filled area! I have spoken to blue property management about this before but all they said was “i will make a note of this in the file”. i would love to see this area taken care of and for the whole estate to be brought up to the standard we were promised!
Who was it that promised the Acoustic Bund would be cleared, was it Keepmoat Homes Limited or BPM (Blue Property Management UK Limited)?
Can you remember the name of the person who made that promise to you?
Its just that this could be a valuable piece of information for other residents to reference when discussing it with BPM.
It was keep most who promised it I think the persons name was Vicky? It was one of the things promised at the time of purchase.
Did anyone else get the flyer through the door about BPM? We are all for joining the cause and will be emailing our concerns to the email addresses supplied.
Please don’t take offence to anyone who wrote that as I commend your time and effort in writing it up and sending it out, but when I was reading it I noticed there were 2 or 3 grammar or spelling mistakes within it. Just worth noting as if we are sending a message to these companies, it’s best to try and appear as professional as possible.
Last edited by pintsized; 23-11-2014 at 22:03.
I presume everyone must have got one because we visited the estate yesterday to go through a few things with our new tenants and they had kept it to one side for us (the site maintenance fee is included in their rent). We also called in to see a couple of our old neighbours who both mentioned the flyer and that they had/would be sending the emails.
The timing is unfortunate for us as we would have been happy to get involved and help in any way we could to resolve the various issues, but unfortunately we fly back to Abu Dhabi tomorrow, so the best we can, and will do, is to send the emails as suggested.
Reiterating what Pintsize said, we also commend the person(s) who are responsible for the flyers, for the time and effort invested in trying to unite the residents of Horizon and sort out the site maintenance once and for all.
After reading the flyer, talking to people yesterday and taking note of the number of page views, we suspect that if people have not got any additional information to add to the topic that they may only send the emails and not post comments as well.
Should those people be keeping an eye on this feed, and should you read this post, we urge you to join the forum, which takes minutes to join and is free to use, and write a simple comment to let other residents know that their views and concerns are shared and supported by their fellow residents. In particular Tel38, who, from reading various posts, seems to be another resident who has been actively involved in related issues in the past.
The next time we are back in Sheffield we will be sure to check this topic to see how you’re getting on. So good luck with getting the site maintenance fees under control and the various issues resolved, but if all other avenues of reasonable action fail to deliver change then you can count on our vote to change site maintenance company!
I have returned from work today to find a letter from BPM trying to explain their charges and, included at the back, another bill for a further £18.09! they are claiming that this charge is for clearing the accoustic bund! i find it utterly appauling to demand this extra amount from us for works which should be included in our original payments! i feel it is time to leave BPM they seem to be just money grabbing rather than actually listening to us and doing the works which were promised to us when we purchased our properties! i will not be paying this as i feel i am being ripped off and would encourage others to do the same.
I am not paying it either.
———- Post added 19-12-2014 at 18:09 ———-
At a site meeting a few months ago they were specifically asked not to undertake any work prior to consent from every paying resident. This hasn’t been adhered to so they can whistle for their money.
Please see below comments I have made on an alternative thread which can be seen in detail at http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/show…751783&page=12
In case you are unaware of the thread I am posting my latest contribution below!
I had an email today with the letter attached. They are a Joke.
As I mentioned in past posts, the Bund is the plot of land which runs the full length of the estate, either side of the acoustic fence which creates a barrier between the estate and Fletchers, Gallaghers (ex Brocklebank) etc.
At the site meeting held with Tamara Gifford it was one area that was highlighted as being a mess. Tamara stated that a clean up of the Bund would be discussed on her return to her office. She was specifically told that if any work that needed doing was to incur extra charges then it should NOT be undertaken without prior consent of ALL paying residents. They have obviously seen the chance of making a quick buck and gone ahead and done it anyhow. It is my view that they had NO authority to do this without prior consent and I for one will NOT be paying the extra £18.
I have been asking them for 2 years now if we could have signs erected on the grassy area on Clay Pit Way to prevent the vandalism of the flower beds (NO Ball Games etc). Eventually they responded saying that it could be done at a cost of £500 to be split amongst all paying residents. I told them to “get stuffed” so it never happened. Yet they now take it upon themselves to carry out a laughable £2000+ clean up of the Bund without prior consultation with EVERY paying resident. As well as being immoral surely it is also illegal. I cannot see any court in the land forcing a resident to pay and as such I will not!!!
Pintsized I do think your comment “Why couldn’t they just have sent payment letters to the residents that wanted it done?” is a little unfair. I was ONE of the residents who did want it done and argued that it should have been maintained from day one rather than be allowed to get in the state it was in. Tamara assured those of us who attended the site meeting that if ANY of the work that needed doing would incur extra costs then there would be prior consultation before carrying out such tasks. There wasn’t so don’t pay, simple!
There may be areas that you are unhappy with that are of no interest to residents living in a different part of the estate but you are still entitled to voice your concerns but I feel that we should expect ALL of the areas detailed on their site Map to be kept to a reasonable standard as we are paying for the upkeep of the whole estate not just the areas adjacent to where we each reside.
———- Post added 19-12-2014 at 01:06 ———-
Blue Property can be contacted at;
1. firstname.lastname@example.org (Peter Evans…Managing Director)
2. Tamara@bluepropertymanagementuk.com (Tamara Gifford..site manager)
3. email@example.com (Indra Lazinskaite..Accounts)
4. firstname.lastname@example.org (general)
If anyone decides to complain to them please include all of the above recipients in your emails!
I have sent this email;
In relation to this email I have received I ask for your comments on the following point.
At the site meeting you attended one of the areas of concern was the acoustic bund. You agreed it was in a bad state and agreed to discuss with your team. It was made crystal clear to you that if any work was to be carried out on this area that might incur extra costs then nothing must be undertaken without prior agreement of ALL paying residents. You agreed!
However this work was undertaken without any consultation and you are now expecting each resident to pay an extra £18.09 towards it. My honest view is that as well as being immoral what you are attempting may well be illegal.
When I asked you to erect signs to prevent the vandalism of the grassy area on Clay Pit Way your response (eventually) was that if such signs were to be erected there would be an extra cost of £500 to be split amongst ALL paying residents. As there was no majority agreement this work never took place.
You DO NOT have the authority to carry out over £2000 of “extra work” without prior consultation of ALL paying residents.
I would like a speedy response if possible from either yourself, Indra or Peter Evans.
———- Post added 21-12-2014 at 13:37 ———-
I just wanted to make residents aware of the following;
If you wish to pay your “regular” maintenance fee by monthly standing order I can confirm that up to now there is no extra cost for doing this.
Basically you just need to contact them for their bank details and set up a monthly standing order for 1/12th of the cost.
I much prefer to do this as it gives back some element of control. If BPM decide to neglect their duties again I will have no hesitation in cancelling the standing order and as so will only have paid for the work they have actually undertaken.
I would encourage as many people as possible to pay their maintenance fee using this method as if it ever reaches the point where we attempt to dispose of their services and seek alternatives I don’t hold out much hope of anyone receiving refunds on monies paid.
Hi, I’m rather a late-comer to the unhappy-with-Blue-Property party, although myself and my husband have been as put out with them as everyone else seems to be for quite sometime. My husband tried contacting the local councilor for advice/support but unfortunately he didn’t get a response (disappointing because he is a fully paid up and committed member of said political party). We did include photographs we took of the hideous state the estate was in at the time.
This may seem like an obvious thing to ask, but has anyone sought any legal advice as yet e.g. through Citizen’s Advice?
I stupidly didn’t save the flyer we received a few months ago suggesting that people post on these forums and send emails of complaint, although I did read it and agree with pretty much everything it said -it was just a case of life getting too busy at the time.
We would be very interested to be informed of any residents meetings about the matter, and it would be helpful to know about any future meetings arranged with Blue Property staff.
I think it is almost comedy timing that Blue Property send their latest letter so close to Christmas when everybody is not only too busy to be able to think about it, but also at a time when funds are tight.
Is there a suggested wording that we should use in emails of complaint? Or would it just be an email putting our own views/position across?
I discussed the issue with my Dad this week who works for a well known company that provide mortgages -including my own mortgage and I imagine a few others on the estate. Although he agreed that what Blue Property are doing seems unlawful, he did point out that we need to be careful because property management companies are entitled to contact mortgage providers over unpaid fees and ask for them to be added to mortgage balances -which would also incur quite hefty administration fees. I think he did say that it only applies to unpaid fees over a certain amount though.
(also please be kind to me because I am new to this forum -and forums in general)
Hello strangelord and welcome.
As far as I am aware no-one has gone as far as seeking legal advice as yet. At the moment we are just awaiting replies from Blue Property.
I would encourage you to email them (please see my previous post above for their contact details). As far as how to word your email that is your choice. I personally feel that we should all be “singing from the same hymn book”. My past complaints to them have always been based upon areas around the WHOLE of the estate and not just around my own property but as a paying resident you are entitled to take any stance you wish.
I strongly believe what they are doing on this occasion is unlawful but as of today I have no legal advice to back this up. Regardless of this I will not be paying the extra £18+ so I will wait to see what their action will be.
As far as I am aware there are no planned meetings with neither residents nor BPM staff.
Welcome again to this forum, your participation and opinions will always be appreciated!
There is another Forum called “Advice on Darnall to live there” which has more Blue Property information and complaints starting on about page 10.
Please encourage as many of your neighbours etc to join in the forums. The more the merrier lol.
My husband has been in touch with Clive Betts MP regarding the Blue Property issue. We have received a response to say that Clive is available to meet with us this coming Sunday -18th January, at 1pm, venue to be confirmed.
He wanted an idea about how many residents might attend.
Please respond to this post if you’d like to come along, and let your neighbours know.
We are hoping to push some flyers through doors over the next couple of days but our printer is on the blink so that will have to await us having access to a photocopier (unless anyone can help out by doing this on our behalf??)!
Also, we have tried to speak to citizen’s advice a couple of times to no avail so far.
And surprisingly have not got an email response from Blue Property when we asked the question as to why we should pay this additional £18.
Hi i would be very interested in attending this meeting! im sick of Blue property scamming us of our money! please keep me updated on the venue!
Will do, I’ll post as soon as we know anything more.
I am Emma (strangelord)’s husband.
Sorry about the late notice but it has been agreed that the meeting be postponed until next Sunday (25th of Jan) at 1PM.
There wasn’t enough notice before, and our purpose will be best served by getting as many people as possible notified of the meeting, Clive Betts MP has agreed to send the flyers around, and previously we would have struggled to get the flyers around and give everyone plenty of notice.
Again, sorry for the postponement, but I hope we can all rally around and ensure Clive goes away with an impression of how important it is that this situation, where we are being held to ransom by a unscrupulous company given carte blanche to endlessly demand money from us, can never happen again.
Thank you for arranging this, i totally agree that we need to make a big impact to show how we feel about this! if there is anything that i can do to help with this, ie flyer delivery or anythimg, please do let me know i will be more than happy to help get this issue sorted.
very unfortunately I will be in Nottingham next Sunday and London the weekend after. If I am back in time I will be there but it looks doubtful for me.
To update you I have, as expected, received no reply from Tamara or anyone else at Blue Property to my previous email (please see previous posts).
Strangely I also have not yet received any demand for the extra £18 for the clearing of the bund. I did make it clear to them that I won’t pay it but still find it strange that I have not received it.
My suspicion is that they are sending out the demand to the more “conforming” residents to see what they can collect before moving on to the more stubborn ones like myself but only time will tell. My guess is that many residents, especially those who are unaware of the growing anger toward Blue Property will have already paid up.
They will then I feel either be happy with what they have collected or alternatively begin to play hardball with the non-payers.
Please feel free to print out any comments I have made previously if they will help at all. I stand by everything I have stated in the past and if I can be of any help please feel free to message me personally!
———- Post added 20-01-2015 at 13:14 ———-
I have today received the letter from Clive Betts.
As I am probably unable to attend I have emailed my views along with some documentary evidence.
My neighbour will be attending as he has also been in constant dispute and he as asked me to ask if there is anything in particular he needs to bring along to support the arguments? He doesn’t have internet access so please let me know if you would like him to bring any evidence, documentation etc.
Tel -we emailed Blue Property twice to make it very clear to them that we wouldn’t be paying the £18 unless they explained to us exactly why we were paying for something that a) was already budgeted for, and b) we didn’t agree to being done. Surprisingly they didn’t get back to us, so hey-ho, we didn’t pay (which is a first for me to take such a risk!!!)
Good on You!!!
Usually when they send a demand for payment they include a threat that if payment is not received within a certain timeframe then extra charges will be added. Did the demand include any such threat this time? I’m still bemused as to why they haven’t billed me yet. My neighbour who is also a continual thorn in their side hasn’t receive a bill either.
I just hope no-one has paid but I suspect that many will have!
I can guarantee that anything they don’t collect will be added to next years budget so be prepared for yet another argument.
As a self-employed man I am considering billing them for the ridiculous amount of hours I have wasted over the last 2 years or so in arguments with them.
Last edited by tel38; 21-01-2015 at 19:13. Reason: Update
As I’ve had previous dealings with Keepmoat, out of interest, I wanted to know where the Horizon development was. My search brought up a name that I have heard before as she misled us when trying to buy a house from Keepmoat. The name is Vanessa Burling – Sales Director at Keepmoat Homes. She is a director at Horizon (Darnall No1 and Darnall No2) Management company along with David Ward (Regeneration Regional Managing Director for Keepmoat).
HORIZON (DARNALL NO 1) MANAGEMENT COMPANY LIMITED
BLUE PROPERTY GROUP
3 EAST CIRCUS STREET
Incorporated: 14 Jan 2010
Blue Property Management UK Limited is a subsidiary of Blue Property Group Limited.
Peter Evans one the directors of Blue Property Management Limited/Blue Property Group is a director for other property management companies, including HAWTHORNES 2011 MANAGEMENT LIMITED, SEASONS THURNSCOE MANAGEMENT COMPANY LIMITED, and AMARANTHUS MANAGEMENT LIMITED, – all Keepmoat sites.
SEASONS THURNSCOE MANAGEMENT COMPANY LIMITED lists the following as directors: Peter Evans, Vanessa Burling and David Ward.
As they are peeing in the same pot both Keepmoat and Blue can not deny they don’t know what each other are doing. Blue should know how many houses are to pay the maintenance fee, they should know to maintain the bund and they probably know that Keepmoat are unlikely to care if any residents complain to them because Keepmoat already know what’s going on, and (from my experience of Keepmoat albeit not related to the Horizon development) do not give too hoots what Blue do.
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